What are some challenges that Iām likely to face when trying to deliver my first command to project?
Generally speaking, when you are doing a BPM or process orchestration project, the hard part is not articulating out the steps like your business people, your IT people, they know what those should be. The hard part is the nitty gritty of actually talking to the integration steps, like, for instance, youāll wanna make a restful call, but thereāll be some weird thing in the header and you wonāt be able to call it. The team thatās responsible for that wonāt be able to meet with you until, letās say for example, next Tuesday. When you do, theyāll give you a token. Youāll try, and it doesnāt work because youāre in the wrong environment. That kind of stuff drives you nuts. Integrations are hard and theyāre hard because theyāre imprecise, so the pain is going to be in the nuts and bolts of actually talking to those external systems. Seems like it should be easy, but itās always painful. Therefore, thatās the place that I would start.
Now, typically what I do of my projects, is I will always stub those out. If there is an APIM system in place like an Apigee, MuleSoft, Kafka or something else, I will use that and I will stub out a restful API call. Then Iāll let the Java folks, .net folks, or whoever, figure out the mechanics. When thatās done, Iāll turn the sprocket and Iāll actually get the payload that I expect. If thatās not in place, then Iāll put in essentially stub, so instead of calling the service to say, āGet a customer from the databaseā, Iāll actually say, āHey, what does the customer look like? What does the stub look like?ā I will hard code that while the rest of the team is dealing with the technical difficulties of making that integration work.
The reason that I do that is because if Iāve got a 10 step process and the very first step requires that I load a customer, I donāt want to be stopped on working on the rest while this problem gets trafficked. Iāll just take āJohn Smithā as a customer, and for example, we know that he has 17 fields. (first name, last name, age, etc.) Weāll use that to drive the process. In the meantime, Iām going to have one of my smart guys figuring out why this restful API call doesnāt work. That allows us to make progress on the process side while concurrently working on progress. On the technical integration side, one of the ancillary benefits is that when youāre doing testing, you know how much of your time is being spent on the process and how much of it is being spent on the integration.

How do you know that the payloads will have fidelity and really be true to what you need?
You can imagine a scenario where we have a customer thatās coming back and we expect the last name field to be named, ālast name,ā but really in the database, itās called āsurname.ā When we actually make the thing work, it breaks because we were expecting last name and we got āsurname,ā and our code doesnāt know how to deal with it. There is no way to know that every single time off the bat.
However, I submit that it doesnāt matter. I submit because the cost of integration is cheap due to the fact weāre stubbing it out. Actually making the change from ālast nameā to āsurnameā to āmiddle nameā is something that we can evolve on. These are problems that you can negotiate and that you can solve as youāre going through the system. The trick, as always in the enterprise space for the last 15 to 20 years, is iteration. You do it again. You make some mistakes, shake yourself off, and you do it again, and you make it better, right?
Youāve gotta embrace that philosophy. You deal with a customer and they have 17 fields, and maybe you get six of them wrong. Thatās okay. Move forward with what you can, and then fix the other parts of this that is the heart of what I call āshark architecture.ā And to me, āshark architectureā means that like a shark, you have to swim in order to be able to breathe. You have to move forward. There is no stopping. We donāt assume that we donāt know what to do because the team is not done with whatever they are dealing with. That doesnāt happen on the projects where Iām involved and I get to keep my sanity.
With all that being said, I would say make some mistakes. Go forward, come back, iterate on it, make it better and better. This isnāt just for delivery, this is for post-delivery. We expect processes to be provable. We expect to be able to make changes, right? We need to work out our discipline and our cadence for how we incorporate change into what weāre doing. The big mantra of Agile programming has always been embrace change. Letās do that, right? Letās do this thing that weāve been talking about all this time. Iām a big proponent of this. Just get in there, get stuff done, make some mistakes, learn from them, and do it better.

How do I deal with the fact that in the real world thereās gonna be a lot of variation of the nature of the data and your approach might lull us into a sense of complacency?
You need synthetic data that is auto-generated by an AI. It is fair to say, for example, that weāre going to bring back āJohn Smithā and he is going to be a specific payload, but itās incredibly easy now to say, āHey, weāre going to bring back one of random 20 customers. One will be John Smith and one will be Joan Stevenson, and so on and so forth.ā The data variance can be dynamically changed by an AI. Itās synthetic data that you described using a grammar, and there are open source tools that can do this for you. You can talk to your favorite AI tool. They can do this for you, or you can just code it up. This is not going to be one hundred percent. Itās not going to cover you for every variation, but it is better than nothing.
Remember, we need to move, we need to make progress. I would much rather have a process that breaks when there is no customer identification number than have a process that hasnāt even been implemented because weāre waiting for everything to be perfect.
We brought on Max Young and his team at CapBPM to help us out to put our best foot forward as it related to our Camunda deployment and our Camunda journey. And when we brought on CapBPM, we actually didn't have Terry Camerlengo even on board yet as a Technology Director. So I can't emphasize enough how important it was for us to have a really good partner with us. I can confidently say if we made a wrong choice on the partner, I don't think we'd be standing here and sharing what we're sharing with you today.
George Kutnerian Co-Founder, President & CEO of Wellpointe Inc.(Excerpt from his session at CamundaCon 2025 NYC)